God cannot be known by the outgoing faculties, by the intellect or the vital airs called the pranas.
He can be known only by the soul: like alone can know the like. When is the soul liberated? When it is analysed from mind and the outgoing faculties.

Sant Kirpal Singh

Radio Interview of Sant Kirpal Singh

"Talk of Philadelphia" radio show, in Philadelphia, 30 September, 1963
A call-in program on WCAU (AM & FM) Radio, conducted by Mr. Ed Harvey


Ed Harvey: Our guest today is looked upon as a Master Saint by many throughout the world. He is His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji. And he is the director of Ruhani Satsang, known also as the "Science of the Soul". He is President of the World Fellowship of Religions: he was chosen unanimously in 1957 in New Delhi, and in 1960, in Calcutta. He is now on a world tour of 52 countries. Our guest, His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji – and if I may – and I understand that it is allowable that from now on I may call you "Kirpal Singh".

Sant Kirpal Singh: That will do.

Ed Harvey: All right. Now, could you explain what you mean by Ruhani Satsang, or the Science of the Soul? Could you explain that just a little bit to us?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Ruhani Satsang means a gathering in which science of the soul is taught: what has this connection with the body, what connection this (soul) has with the Oversoul, God. So that place where men of all denominations sit together for the purpose of knowing how to know God, irrespective of whether they belong to one religion or the other, that's a common ground for all.

Ed Harvey: A common ground for all religions?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes.

Ed Harvey: Then...then this religion that you teach ...or this...I keep forgetting what the name of it is ....

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, that is no religion. That only gives the basic principles of all religions, which are already given by all Masters who came in the past. It's a revival of the old, old Truth.

Ed Harvey: Right, so Buddhists, Mohammedans, Jewish, Catholics, Protestants – they all could belong here?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, all.

Ed Harvey: Well, what is it? A brotherhood of man?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, as a man we are all one. As a soul, we are all one. And the Way back to God is also one. How to come in contact with God: that is, God is already within us – It is the very Soul of our souls – how to invert from outside and come in contact with God, Who is Light, love, and life.

Ed Harvey: Well now, is this a theory that is taught in the Far East, or is this something that has evolved from your own inner, personal experience?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No, it is an old, old Truth given out by all Masters who came in the past. That's no new thing, only a revival of the old, old Thing that we have forgotten. And Masters come from time to time to revive that old Truth: how to come in contact with God, how to know God, and...

Ed Harvey: And Masters come from time to time. Do They...is there constantly, then, in this area...is there constantly a Master on earth? At all times?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. God works, you see. God-Power works at different human poles, from time to time, to guide the child-humanity. It's the God-Power working through a human pole That gives a contact with God. No son-of-man can do it.

Ed Harvey: Well, now... are you considered a Master, yourself?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, I have got some connection with the grace of my Master (Baba Sawan Singh Ji) , and people are having that connection through Him.

Ed Harvey: Well, now do you feel that you hold some sort of a divine commission from above. Is that your purpose here? Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes...authorized...authorized.

Ed Harvey: And you are a Master. Now, what is a perfect Master?

Sant Kirpal Singh: A perfect Master is one who has risen above body-consciousness, and just sees God as I see you or you see me. And sees Him in every....

Ed Harvey: Oh, I see. Now, are you a perfect Master?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, I am given that description, of course (chuckle), to carry on.

Ed Harvey: You have had that gift since you were a child?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, I had awakening from the childhood; but later on I came to the feet of my Master in 1924, and there I sat at His feet for 24 long years; and in His lifetime, with His grace, I came up to that standard – when He authorized me to carry on this work after Him.

Ed Harvey: So that you have had this rare privilege of seeing God, just as I am looking upon you right now...is this what I understand?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Surely.

Ed Harvey: Now, what sort of experience is this? Do you just see Him? Does He have words with you? What goes on when this happens?

Sant Kirpal Singh: It is only to become a conscious co-worker of the Divine Plan. God is Light. And you see the Light of God by inversion – when your eye becomes single: "If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of Light." That's a practical matter of self-analysis: how the two eyes can become one.

Ed Harvey: Is this a sort of something that you do? You sit and contemplate, and this Vision comes to you? Is that how it works?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, that God-Power working through me – that helps others to have the same experience of the Light of God.

Ed Harvey: Now, when you were small, you were known as the "little Saint", so apparently you have had this divine ability for some time. But I understand that many miraculous things have happened to you during your life.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Generally this came up, now and then, as the reactions of the past. Because a man is in the make: he progresses, you see.

Ed Harvey: Well now, what? Could you give us some examples of these "miraculous things" that have happened to you that would not happen to we ordinary people?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, I could see the things even happening in India now, at this moment; or, while sitting in India, I could see what is going on in America.

Ed Harvey: Oh, you can do that today?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes – today I have that reserved. That is a sort of disease – or how you take it, you see? If I am sitting here and I see what is going on there, it's a sort of disease; so I have prayed God to keep it reserved within.

Ed Harvey: (to someone else present, accompanying Master Kirpal Singh): Can you help me with this because I....

Comment: Master is that Power Who can appear in any part of the world. If anybody is in trouble, He can appear. So, the last time when Master Kirpal Singh was in the Himalayas and was meditating on a rock in a flowing river, the flood waters came at sunset; and people (on the shore) thought that he may get drowned. So, as soon as the water touched his feet, he got up and walked on the water, as Jesus did in his time. There was a lady in Los Angeles, and she was crying that she is broke: "If there is any God or Christ, He should appear to me." So Master Kirpal Singh, who was in India, appeared in the luminous Form and gave the lady a basket full of fruits; and she was amazed. Then she wrote a letter to him. And the Master replied, "Whenever there is a real cry in the devotee's heart, that God-Power working through some chosen (human) pole supplies the need." Suchlike things are very common in which people got....

Ed Harvey: Well, for right now, if there was any great need for him to be in India, perhaps he could be there at the same time that he is here!

Sant Kirpal Singh: It's the God-Power working through the human pole That works that way...

Ed Harvey: God-Power working through the human pole...

Sant Kirpal Singh: ...through the human-pole: yes, That materializes in that form* and helps others. "WORD was made flesh and dwelt amongst us." It's the WORD-Power, God-in-action-Power, Which works at the human pole to guide and help the child-humanity. (*Where there is a real cry, the God-Power materializes in a form having the features of the human-pole through which It is working.)

Ed Harvey: Well now, how well accepted in this belief of yours and this religion of yours by the other great religions of the world? Is this an accepted religion?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. I tell you: I have not come to advocate any particular religion, but just to reveal those very basic facts which are already there but we have, due to ignorance, forgotten.

Ed Harvey: You belong to no particular sect or creed.

Sant Kirpal Singh: I belong to the Sikh religion, but while living the Sikh religion that gives universal views. You see, all Masters when They come, they say, "The whole humanity is my family."

Ed Harvey: .. all of humanity is your family...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Masters see from the level of the body, or the level of the soul, not from the level of the outer badges we are carrying of different religions.

Ed Harvey: Well then, do you consider, perhaps, that Jesus was a Master?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes...

Ed Harvey: In his time, Mohammed?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Christ said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee till the end of the world. " That's the God-Power working at his (Jesus') pole, Which is the Christ-Power – and That never leaves, never dies.

Ed Harvey: So that Jesus was one of many Masters?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, Jesus was the human pole, son-of-man, at which that Christ-Power worked. We have regard for the Christ-Power or God-Power, whatever It may be called, you see; with due deference to the son-of-man called "Jesus".

Ed Harvey: Now, was Mohammed also a Master, a similar Master?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, similarly...Masters, you see, to whatever level They have progressed, They gave out as required by the times when They came. So, we have regard for all Masters.

Ed Harvey: But at any time, at any time in our lives, there is at least one Master on earth...alive on earth?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Usually you find history shows like that; but there is no hard and fast rule against it, you see: there may be more than one...

Ed Harvey: There may be more than one?

Sant Kirpal Singh: ...may be, but there is no hard and fast rule against it; because It is God Who knows where to work and where not to work: what is the need, you see.

Ed Harvey: Well now, you said – or I think you said, if I recall – that Jesus was the Son of God.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Other Masters also said the same thing, "We are the Son of God." They are all Children of Light. When They come, They come to give Light to all the world over. They come for the whole world, not for one religion or the other.

Ed Harvey: Then you believe, and your followers believe, that you, too, are the Son of God?

Sant Kirpal Singh: I tell you: that generally Masters will never say. They will say, "It is the Father working through me, or at the back of me." You see? Generally, you will find that always They speak in the third person, not in the first person.

Ed Harvey: "The Father working through me" is the way you put it?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, generally, in almost all Masters you will find like that. At times, They might give some inkling to that: "I and my Father are One." But generally They say, "It is the Father That is working through me."

Ed Harvey: Now, one of your favourite expressions, in the reading that I have done about you and your life, is: "First, know thyself."

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes...

Ed Harvey: Well now, what great help do you think that this is? Particularly, what if I get to know myself, and I don't like me? I mean, what help is it to me to know myself?

Sant Kirpal Singh: I tell you: the point is, you see, we find this man-body works so long as some Power is working within us. The time does come when we have to leave this body – that is, at the time of death. So, this five or six feet high statue we are not: We are the indweller of the body. We have to leave this body. And we are also in the body: body is working so long as we are in the body, and we are in the body so long as some Power controls us in the body. Breathing goes out: that has to return – some Thing is bringing it back, controlling it. So, that Power: That is the Controlling Power of us in the body; That is the Controlling Power controlling all creation – under Its Control – That is What is called "Oversoul" or "God". In the man-body, it is the soul that can know God: not with intellect, or outgoing faculties (senses), or the vital airs. So, we have to analyse (separate) our self from mind, matter, outgoing faculties... and know our self. "Know thyself" means to know who you are, and what you are.

Ed Harvey: To know your inner self...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, inner self.

Ed Harvey: Well, of course, everyone is not spiritually advanced, as you well know: and, maybe, it's impossible for many of us to know our selves that intimately; or to appreciate our inner selves.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Personally, I think whoever has got a man-body – that man-body  is considered to be the highest in all creation – they have the birthright to know God. But, as I told you: each man, every Saint has his past, and every sinner a future.

Ed Harvey: "Every Saint has his past, and every sinner a future." That's a nice thought.

Sant Kirpal Singh: There's hope. So man, you see, is the highest in all creation, is next to God; and in this man-body only we can know God – and in no other body.

Ed Harvey: Now, what to you is the soul?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Soul? Soul is a conscious entity.

Ed Harvey: Is a conscious entity...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Entity ...we are conscious beings. That consciousness you feel. If you would like to feel it, just close your eyes quickly, and then open, then close. In the act of nictitation, you will feel some awareness back of the eyes. That we are.

Ed Harvey: If you open and close your eyes, and keep doing it, there will be an awareness at the back of my eyes?

Sant Kirpal Singh: You will feel it if you do it actually. So, that we are. That is a conscious entity.

Ed Harvey: Is that part of my soul, then? Sant Kirpal Singh: That is the soul.

Ed Harvey: Oh: That is the soul.

Sant Kirpal Singh: God is an Ocean of All Consciousness. We are of the same Essence as That of God: a drop of the Ocean of All Consciousness. Our consciousness, which is called "soul", is environed by mind and outgoing faculties – we are identified with them so much so that we have forgotten our self. So, first, we have to analyse (separate) our self, know our self, then we can know that Controlling Power that is keeping us in the body. Self-knowledge precedes God-knowledge.

Ed Harvey: Is it necessary that we have a Master, such as you, with us to experience this inner awareness?

Sant Kirpal Singh: With due deference to all Masters who came in the past: Their findings we have got – a fine record of them – in the scriptures with us today. They saw God: those whoever met with Them, they also saw God, you see.

Ed Harvey: All of the Masters have seen God...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, (as) soul. "Son knows the Father, and others to whom the Son reveals (the Father)." So, even to understand those scriptures – because those are the facts given by the Masters: what They saw, (inner) experiences in Their life – so, now also, we want somebody who is on the Way, who has had some experience of the (inner) Way. He can give you the true import of Their sayings, you see.

Ed Harvey: I see.

Sant Kirpal Singh: We need also now somebody who has gone on the Way, and can give us a right interpretation; but not that much only but also can give us the same experiences they had (within) with the Master themselves in the past. It's a matter of self-analysis.

Ed Harvey: Self-analysis...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, just like anatomy. Doctors do anatomy, you see. It is anatomy (dissection) of the soul from the mind, outgoing faculties, and outer things.

Ed Harvey: Our guest is His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji. He is President of the World Fellowship of Religions, and he is also founder and director of Ruhani Satsang, which is also known as the Science of the Soul. Twelve-ten on your AM dial, WCAU, WCAU-FM, in Philadelphia. Kirpal Singh, I am not personally familiar with your teachings but, from what I gather here in talking with you this afternoon, it is very similar to what I know as the Bahai religion. Now, are these two similar-type religions?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No, sir.

Ed Harvey: They are not?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No. Bahais say they are after blending all religions into one religion.

Ed Harvey: A brotherhood?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Brotherhood is there even while remaining in different religions. We are all the same Children of the same God. We are brothers and sisters in God. Bahaiism has got one religion for the whole world; one government for the whole world. One religion cannot even be dreamt of, I would say, because each man has his own make and temperaments, and own climatic influences, and customs. So, it is impossible, I would say to my mind, to blend all religions to become one, with the same customs and the same rituals, and like that.

Ed Harvey: Oh, I see: the Bahai want to take all religions and make them one. And you want to let all religions...

Sant Kirpal Singh: You see, Masters never come to break the Law but fulfil it. So, let them remain where they are. They simply look to them from the level of the man: all mankind is one. And, further, They look to them from the level of the soul: being embodied souls. So, there They see that we are one as a man, and as a soul, and as a worshipper of the same God. You see, They let them alone in their own religions. Whatever steps they have taken already, that is well and good – that is meant for the preparation of the ground; but they should take a step further: to rise above body-consciousness, know one's self, and then be able to know God. Masters do not touch any outer forms or rituals of the various religions.

Ed Harvey: So...so... So, what I can't understand – and that's probably because I'm pretty naive in this area – but I can be a Protestant, my neighbour can be Catholic, my neighbour on the other side can be a Jew, and we can all still be followers of you.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Oh yes, each man can have his own religion. I tell you: a true Christian is one who sees the Light of God – that's the criterion given. And a similar definition is given of the other religions: only he is a true Sikh who sees the Light of God; a Mohammedan is a true Mohammedan if he just rises above body-consciousness and sees the Light of God. The same criterion is given. So, to be a true Christian, to be a true Jew, to be a true Sikh, or a true Mohammedan, that is what is wanted. When they come up There, they are one There: as a man, as a soul, and inner, higher contact, too. God is Light. God is Sound-Principle.

Ed Harvey: If there are any of our listeners who care to call and talk with, or ask questions of Kirpal Singh, he would be pleased to talk with you. Our suburban number is Mohawk 7-0500, MO7-0500; in Philadelphia,it's Tennyson 9-6790, TE9-6790; and the New Jersey number, across the river, is WO, Woodlawn 3-5909, W03-5909. What, exactly ...before we take the calls – just a couple of more questions – what is that you call "spirituality"? Would you explain that?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Spirituality means: we are spirit in man – what connection we have got in the body – what connection with all the world over. Our spirit, our soul, is environed: under the control of mind. Mind is under the control of the outgoing faculties (senses). We are identified with the mind, body, and outside things so much so that we have forgotten our self. So, spirituality is a matter of self-analysis: how to liberate our soul from mind and outgoing faculties...

Ed Harvey: Well then this, again, is to know our inner self.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Spirituality is pure science of the soul: how to analyse it (soul) from mind and matter, and knowing one's self.

Ed Harvey: All right. This is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you, please?

First telephone caller: Why yes, Ed. Would you ask your guest what he knows about this religion that is sweeping Japan: Soka Jokkai? And what he thinks about this? Thank you.

Ed Harvey: Well, don't go away now. Would you repeat that? Did you leave? Did you understand her question?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No.

Ed Harvey: A new religion that is sweeping Japan now; and she named what it was, and I lost the name...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Shintoism.

Ed Harvey: No, it wasn't Shinto. No, because Shinto has been in Japan....

Sant Kirpal Singh: Buddhism.

Ed Harvey: No, because Buddhism and Shinto have been in Japan for centuries. Now, this is a new religion, she said, that is sweeping Japan; and she went so fast I didn't catch the name, did you?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No.

Ed Harvey: No? Well, I guess we will have to go on then. This is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you?

Second telephone caller: Yes, thank you. I would like to ask your guest if he would please describe what God looks like, since he says that he has seen Him. I know a great many of your listeners would love to hear the answer to this question.

Ed Harvey: All right. You want to listen on your radio, and you may hear the answer. Thank you. Sant Kirpal Singh: What did she say?

Ed Harvey: She wants to know: since you have seen God, many listeners would be interested in knowing what He looks like.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, with the grace of God of course, I have had experience of Him. God is Light. All Masters say, "God is Light." So It Manifests as Light. God is Light, love, and life. So, we can experience Him in that way.

Ed Harvey: So, it's more of an experience – because I got the wrong impression, too. Because when... I think you both said you could see God just as you see me. Well, I am hardly light.

Sant Kirpal Singh: No, no, no... God is seen, not with the eyes of flesh and bone: that is the inner eye or "the single eye" within us, each one of us ...that is, "The eye is the light of the body: if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of Light." How the two eyes can become "single": these are not the two eyes of flesh and bone that can see (God) but that inner eye that can open to see the Light of God. That (inner, single eye) is within each one of us. And that is why it is said, "If you shut the doors of the temple of the body, you will see the Light of Heaven." That is within us.

Ed Harvey: So, well...well what...then describe as nearly as you can. You see – you see a light, and this is...

Sant Kirpal Singh: That Light is Light more beautiful...more than the outer light.

Ed Harvey: I see, so you know because It is like no other light, you have ever seen, that This is God.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, more...most. Ed Harvey: All right, Ed Harvey here. May we hear from you, please?

Third telephone caller: I would like to ask Dr. Singh if he believes in reincarnation? And if in his travels, when he wishes to appear in India from wherever he might be, does he use a form of teleportation; or does he travel, as some Mystics have described it, in his astral Body?

Ed Harvey: All right, thank you.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Astral body...astral body: we have to leave the physical body. We have also got the astral Body and the causal Body. Macrocosm is in the microcosm of the man-body. So, when we leave...at the time of death...this (physical) body – or even now, if we learn how to leave the body now – we can traverse into the Astral Plane in the astral body.

Ed Harvey: Well now, she asked if you believe in reincarnation.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Most of the Masters have referred to it. And some Masters have not referred to it: for the reason being that those who become the ideal Christian, or the ideal Mohammedan, or the ideal anyone else... This reincarnation is only...it is just to bring back man...back to perfection. So They have not referred to it (reincarnation) because they (the ideal followers) have got the perfection in this life; so there is no need, then. That is why some Masters have not referred to reincarnation, and Others have referred to reincarnation.

Ed Harvey: Uh huh...

Sant Kirpal Singh: Once I had been to Pakistan, you see. Generally, Mohammedans do not believe in reincarnation. They put to me that very question: whether I believe in reincarnation or not. I told him that some Masters have referred to reincarnation and Others have not. Then I told him, "Look here, I just put one question to you."

Ed Harvey: Not a monopoly, then (chuckle).

Sant Kirpal Singh: Then I told him, "I put one question to you, to say further into the matter." Then he said, "What?" I told him, "I have come to your Pakistan. I am abiding by all laws, etcetera: quite living amicably, and you are living also lovingly with me? But there is a police department, and there are prison-houses there. But I will say: there is no police department, no prison-house for me. So, similarly, (for) those who become the ideal Mohammedan, or ideal Christian, or ideal Sikh, for them there is no reincarnation."

Ed Harvey: I see... And also you believe in a form of what we call here, and you know as "extrasensory perception", and such; and this ability, also, to transform yourself.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, we can rise above body-consciousness at will, of course. You see, that (rising above) is an action of sowing: "As you sow, so shall you reap." Action-and-reaction comes. Those who become perfect, they need no such going and coming (reincarnation).

Ed Harvey: Now, I have got the name of this religion in Japan. It's...though I don't know exactly how to pronounce it, though I've been to Japan...but I believe it's Soka Jakkai – that this woman called about, and said it is new.

Sant Kirpal Singh: I have not heard about it, so far. Ed Harvey: I don't know it either.

Sant Kirpal Singh: I imagine it is some new thing coming up. There are so many things coming up: Subud movement is there; there is Bridge movement there...it might be something like that.

Ed Harvey: All right, this is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you, please?

Fourth telephone caller: Good afternoon, Ed. I think you have a very interesting guest today.

Ed Harvey: Thank you.

Fourth telephone caller: And first, I would like to get a little bit more clarification of his own religious orientation. Now judging – he can tell me whether I'm right or wrong about this – judging by his name, "Singh", this is a Sikh name, so I take it he is a member of the Sikh religious sect of India. Now, I take it when he says "Master" – he refers to "Master" – this would be a kind of translation of the famous Sikh word, "Guru", that is: Teacher. I imagine that he is a Sikh Guru. Now, I would like...as I understand it, and I may be wrong in my readings and interest in religions of India...but, as I understand it, the Sikh religious sect has always been – or has been since the 17th Century – a militaristic sect. And therefore we can say then, that Mr. Singh...I'm asking now: is Mr. Singh a pacifist? That is, does he believe in peace at all costs? and non-violence? Now, before I leave, I just want to tell you that "Soka Jakkai" that you mentioned is a Japanese Buddhist sect. It's not a new religion. It's merely a branch, a revival of an old branch that died out for a while: a rediscovery of an old militant, fundamentalist Buddhist sect. You might say that they are the "Holy Rollers" of Buddhism.

Ed Harvey: I see. Thank you (chuckle). Well now, let's get back to this. Does "Master", in Sikh, mean "Teacher"?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, Sikh. You see, Sikhism is a religion: regular religion, started by Guru Nanak. There were nine Gurus following Him, and They gave all teachings about pure spirituality. And They gave out universal religion, as given out by all Masters who came in the past. I belong to the Sikh religions born in that, of course. So, now that has formed into a regular religion, as others. Whenever Masters come, They never make or form any new thing: They simply just revive the Truth which we forget. "To err is human" after They leave.

Ed Harvey: Right. Well now, he also asked if you are a pacifist, because he said the Sikhs were somewhat militant or militaristic.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Oh no, you see, that is, of course, if need be, just to defend the country: to defend the honour of our innocent people. At that time (17th Century), they had to defend. They had not to take any aggression – aggressive part – but just to defend: "Love knows service and sacrifice", if needs be for the sake of others. In that sense, they are called a "military people". But they are...purely speaking, I will give you an example, you see: when they see God in everyone, even in the enemy and in the friend, they serve all.

Ed Harvey: Now, but you... Personally, are you...do you consider yourself a pacifist?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Pacifist means...?

Ed Harvey: Well, non-militarist...peaceful.

Sant Kirpal Singh: I do believe in non-violence, you see: live, and let others live too; if needs be just to safeguard or defend the innocent people if anybody comes around as an aggressor...for the sake of love, which knows service and sacrifice.

Ed Harvey: Yes, this is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you?

Fifth telephone caller: Yeah, Ed. I am Muslim, and in Islam there is a higher spiritual realm called "Sufism". My question is this: as a Muslim, if I attain the higher realm in Islam which is called "Sufism", would your teacher, or the instructor there, could he take me higher...into a higher realm?

Ed Harvey: I see. All right; you want to listen on your radio?

Fifth telephone caller: Yes, I will.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, Sufis start with self-knowledge... self-knowledge. When you rise above it, you have Cosmic Awareness; and there is still further – higher – Superconscious Cosmic Awareness. So, Sufis realize at the Cosmic Awareness, you see. And, still further, there are Sufis. Even beyond Sufis, Hafiz* has referred to such...like Sufis...who go still beyond, into the Superconscious State. (*Hafiz, a 14th Century Persian Mystic.) So, this can be had. But it will start with self-awareness first: by self-analysis, by rising above body-consciousness. Then, you can rise up to the Cosmic Awareness.

Ed Harvey: So, with Sufism, he's maybe half-way up the ladder?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. This is like Vedantism, you see. You find the Shankara – he's considered to be the highest Vedantist – he says, "Oh God, I see there is no difference between You and me; but I am Thine, You are not mine." Just as a wave can be of the ocean and the ocean cannot be of the wave, that is the Superconscious Awareness of one who rises above Cosmic Awareness. With due deference, to have Cosmic Awareness is no ordinary thing.

Ed Harvey: So this person who just called then has a long way still that he can go?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. There is hope for everybody, as I told you. Whoever has got the man-body, he has got the birthright to rise above.

Ed Harvey: This is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you, please?

Sixth telephone caller: Yes, Mr. Harvey. I would like to ask your guest if he believes in Jesus Christ and he accepts him?

Ed Harvey: Well, he said – and he may talk further on this – he said that Jesus was also one of the Masters, of Which he is, you see. Now, Kirpal Singh, do you want to explain that further?

Sixth telephone caller: Well, I have another question...

Ed Harvey: Well, let him explain this himself; and then you may go on, as long as we have time.

Sixth telephone caller: Very well.

Sant Kirpal Singh: You see, Christ Power is the God-Power working on the different human poles to guide the child-humanity whenever They come. And that Christ-Power never dies...forever That remains. Christ did say, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee till the end of the world." So, of course, the man-poles on which this God-Power works, they do leave us; but not the Christ-Power or the God-Power. So, we take all Masters in that light.

Ed Harvey: Now see, there are many Masters on earth...there may be more on earth than one, at one time...and Jesus was one of these Masters. Now, we have only about two minutes, if you can make this next question very brief.

Sixth telephone caller: What I wanted to know is: How would he explain that in regard to his belief also in reincarnation – when our Lord said that you must live in this life for eternal salvation...and you have no other chance to do it? But reincarnation means you can come back many times. I'll listen on the radio.

Ed Harvey: All right, thank you very much.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Those who reach the highest perfection, they are not to return. You see, those who have to return are those who have not perfected themselves, so far. They are attached to the world, and that attachment brings them round.

Ed Harvey: I see: those who have lived the near-perfect life – I guess none of us, unless we're Masters, lead a perfect life – but those....

Sant Kirpal Singh: ...those who are put on the Way: they know how to rise above body-consciousness, and they have got no attachment to the world: they are not to return. They are to progress from There and earn the Higher.

Ed Harvey: And those of us who have stumbled along the way, we are reincarnated: given another chance. Sant Kirpal Singh: "As you sow, so shall you reap." Where we are attached, we have to go. That's the Law of Nature: we go where we are attached. If we are, too, much attached with God, then we are not to return: we will go to God.

Ed Harvey: Our guest has been His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji, who is President of the World Fellowship of Religions; and he is on a world-tour now of 52 countries. And this is the second city, in this country, of 23 cities that he will visit in the next four months. Our thanks to you, Sant Kirpal Singh Ji, for taking time out to be with us today. Thank you very much.